Meeting:Public (2012-10-07)/Log

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[17:04] <Lankiveil> uh, rather than wait for John I can deputise if people want to get started?
[17:04] <SteveMobile> Idk what it's about but apparently it's good
[17:05] <SteveMobile> Also
[17:05] == Tony1 [7ca99986@...] has joined #wikimedia-au
[17:05] <SteveMobile> Have we given up on SLV?
[17:05] <privatemusings> what's slv?
[17:05] <Graham87> hi Tony
[17:05] <Lankiveil> State Library of Victoria
[17:06] <Lankiveil> ?
[17:06] <Tony1> Hi Graham
[17:06] <privatemusings> hey, also just noticed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Sydney
[17:07] <SteveMobile> Yes
[17:07] <privatemusings> or more specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Sydney/October_2012
[17:07] <Lankiveil> at the moment, we're currently in advanced talks with SLNSW about rolling out the regional workshops and other events with them
[17:07] <SteveMobile> We were trying to get access to their images
[17:07] <Lankiveil> John was handling SLV so he's probably the man you need to talk to on that
[17:07] <SteveMobile> I mentioned it some time ago several times
[17:07] <privatemusings> does the mitchell meeting room have a bar?
[17:07] <SteveMobile> I think we are missing a valuable opportunity
[17:08] <Lankiveil> @PM: I don't believe so
[17:08] <Tony1> THE SLNSW has a Patrick White exhibition at the moment; will come in handy during the French music thing next Saturday
[17:09] <Lankiveil> @Steve: It would be fantastic to do it, don't get me wrong.  I'm not sure what the delay is, but our experience with SLQ is that mass content uploads 

are pretty difficult
[17:09] <privatemusings> is that sarcasm or am I being ignorant, Tony?
[17:09] <privatemusings> :-)
[17:09] <Tony1> me, sarcastic?
[17:09] <Lankiveil> not so much on a technical basis, building a bot is easy.  But actually getting stuff categorised and agreed to by the commons community is "fun'
[17:10] <Tony1> I'd like to visit the exhibition again; before or after the French music thing
[17:10] <privatemusings> you may be unaware that his middle name was Claude, and he was a long term penpal of Debussy's third mistress.
[17:10] <privatemusings> true fact.
[17:10] <Tony1> I don't like French music
[17:10] <privatemusings> too much oboe.
[17:10] <SteveMobile> Lankiveil: Hey, I offered, and was told someone else was handling it
[17:10] <SteveMobile> This is a year ago
[17:11] <Tony1> they never really got the tonic–dominant polarity right
[17:11] <SteveMobile> I also mentioned it at RCC
[17:11] <privatemusings> and they use too much garlic.
[17:11] <privatemusings> and ravel was basically just crazy.
[17:11] <Tony1> when they don't pull off their "colour", they become trivial
[17:12] <privatemusings> ow!
[17:12] <privatemusings> nothing worse than a trivial pursuit!
[17:12] <Lankiveil> @Steve: Yes, I know.  Like I said, I haven't been too involved with it so I can't provide any real info on what the issue is I'm afraid.  If there is 

still an opportunity to proceed then that would be a good thing.
[17:12] <Tony1> I'll only listen to four French composers: Berlioz, Debussy, Ravel, Messiaen. That's it.
[17:12] <Graham87> not even Couperin?
[17:13] <Graham87> I was thinking Francois, but any of them
[17:13] <privatemusings> faure wrote a nice piece about death
[17:13] <privatemusings> if you're into that sort of thing.
[17:13] <SteveMobile> I think we have really dropped the ball lately
[17:13] * privatemusings picks it up.
[17:13] <privatemusings> and kicks it high.....
[17:14] <jayvdb> oh hi, we're on??
[17:14] <Lankiveil> I will admit that I've been spending my time dealing with auditors and administrative matters and not programme work, which I hate.
[17:14] <Lankiveil> @John: yes :)
[17:14] <jayvdb> who has been playing with the clocks
[17:14] <Tony1> Oh, Couperin at a pinch
[17:15] == jayvdb changed the topic of #wikimedia-au to:
[17:15] * privatemusings tries to imagine the sort of pinch which would force one to listen to Couperin.....
[17:15] == jayvdb changed the topic of #wikimedia-au to: #wikimedia-au Welcome to the Wikimedia Australia IRC Channel. Next public meeting date is today.  A log of the 

public meetings are published on the Wikimedia Australia website
[17:15] <privatemusings> strange pinch, I reckon.
[17:15] <jayvdb> sorry
[17:15] <Lankiveil> southern time voodoo
[17:16] <SteveMobile> jayvdb: DST
[17:16] <Graham87> @PM listen to the unmeasured prelude sound file at Couperin's article and you might change your mind ...
[17:16] <Tony1> who was the guy who jumped onto the soundboard of his harpsichord to amuse the King of France?
[17:16] <privatemusings> that was emerson.
[17:16] <privatemusings> possible lake or palmer.
[17:16] <SteveMobile> jayvdb: whats happening with Slv?
[17:17] <Tony1> Charpentier, that's it
[17:17] <Tony1> outrageous
[17:17] <jayvdb> SteveMobile: re SLV, the person in charge was user:billinghurst, but he hasnt done much.
[17:17] <Tony1> he wrecked the instrument
[17:17] <Graham87> laughing out loud
[17:17] <SteveMobile> Right
[17:17] <Graham87> I love the story of that French harpsichordist who fled from a competition with Bach
[17:17] <SteveMobile> So what now?
[17:17] <Tony1> Das Musikalisches Opfer ... yep
[17:18] <privatemusings> sorry to be uninformed, but could you briefly explain what you felt might have been possible, Steve, but is now sort of slipping away?
[17:18] <jayvdb> SteveMobile: if you look at our Annual Plan, we have a program that they can apply to do a joint project with us.
[17:18] <privatemusings> (in regard to SLV)
[17:18] == samwilson [~samwilson@...] has joined #wikimedia-au
[17:18] <SteveMobile> They?
[17:18] <Graham87> hi Sam
[17:19] * peter-} congratulates jayvdb & Siska
[17:19] <samwilson> hi graham!
[17:19] <SteveMobile> I thought WMAU was leading the effort?
[17:19] <Tony1> for?
[17:19] <jayvdb> they are especially interested in edit-a-thons, and regional outreach, much like SLNSW, so we need a content person or GLAM person to work with them
[17:19] <SteveMobile> privatemusings: Image donations to commons, etc
[17:19] <jayvdb> thanks peter-} ;-)
[17:19] <samwilson> (hi everyone else, too)
[17:20] <jayvdb> g'day Sam
[17:20] <privatemusings> ah ha - but they need people to work with - and we're short on people at the mo?
[17:20] <privatemusings> is that is?
[17:20] <privatemusings> (it)
[17:20] <jayvdb> ya, roughly
[17:21] <jayvdb> the Melbourne meetups have a few people attending regularly
[17:22] <SteveMobile> Well my contract with the WMF is scheduled to end at the end of the month
[17:22] <privatemusings> and you (steve) are a bit antsy that we're not doing all we could? - possibly encourage the melbourne folk in that direction, or at least make 

sure they know what might be on the cards?
[17:22] <SteveMobile> So I could help there if that's what's needed
[17:23] <Lankiveil> I wouldn't have any issue if you're willing to pick it up :)
[17:23] <SteveMobile> privatemusings: Pretty much
[17:23] <privatemusings> so can you get in touch with the user mentioned before, Steve, and offer a hand?
[17:24] <privatemusings> I said upthread it was good to see http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/2013_Annual_Plan :-)
[17:24] <SteveMobile> Billinghurst? Don't know em
[17:25] <Tony1> What's the chance of this CoI policy being up and running before the AGM?
[17:25] <privatemusings> is there a link to the policy?
[17:26] <jayvdb> the plan is to have a published COI policy draft document this week, approved at the next ctte meeting, and then confirmed at the AGM
[17:27] <privatemusings> again, sorry to be uninformed, but what are the key conflicts the policy will help deal with?
[17:27] <Tony1> will it be similar to the UK one? I say that not as a joke. Their current scandal was because they didn't see to "get" their own policy and disclosures
[17:27] <jayvdb> the COI draft was distributed to members.  Lets get it public now.  I propose that the COI policy drafted by Sarah is put on the wiki as a draft, and 

the members edit over the next week before it is submitted to the ctte
[17:27] <Lankiveil> basically we want to avoid what happened at WMUK happening here
[17:27] <SteveMobile> When is the agm
[17:27] <privatemusings> ah... good :-)
[17:28] <privatemusings> so I suppose we need to both have a policy, and actually read it ;-)
[17:28] <Tony1> everyone does, which is a long-overdue way for the movement to protect itself from the reptiles at FoxNews et al
[17:28] <samwilson> sounds like a good idea, jayvdb
[17:28] <Lankiveil> the policy isn't a magic pill: just having it won't stop problems, only actually following it in spirit as well as letter will
[17:28] <Tony1> Agreed
[17:29] <jayvdb> I've published the last ctte meeting minutes
[17:29] <jayvdb> http://www.wikimedia.org.au//wiki/Meeting:Committee_%282012-09-22%29
[17:29] <Tony1> thx
[17:30] <SteveMobile> Personally I think wmuk is a joke at present
[17:31] <Tony1> Could I say, the single most important thing WMAu needs is to employ someone, probably part-time, so the committee can concentrate on higher-level 

business. It's not fair nowadays to expect the committee to run things at all levels – particularly as the chapters become more professionalised internationally.
[17:31] <peter-}> Agreed - and I'd like to thank jayvdb for his openness & trust on the way he addressed his recent possible-apparent-COI issue.
[17:31] <Lankiveil> it's unfortunate that two of their directors have been caught up in drama in a short amount of time
[17:31] <jayvdb> the draft COI policy is now at http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/Conflict_of_interest_policy
[17:31] <Lankiveil> it's unfortunate that the issues around Fae and Roger have overshadowed the good programme work that WMUK does
[17:31] <peter-}> Tony1: That's in the 2013 Plan
[17:32] <Tony1> yes; far too clubby, those guys, but they do do good work. Their blog, for example, is a good read.
[17:32] <SteveMobile> 90,000 seems a lot
[17:32] <SteveMobile> 2x50,000 seems better
[17:32] <Tony1> 2013 plan ... I haven't read it yet; I haven't got over the deadline issue yet!
[17:32] <privatemusings> what's the deadline issue?
[17:32] <Tony1> Let's hope the FDC staff find a way, politically, to accept the late edits
[17:33] <Tony1> um ... it was due on 1 Oct, a minute to midnight
[17:33] <SteveMobile> We were late submitting our FDC proposal
[17:33] <privatemusings> fdc = ??
[17:33] <Graham87> funds dissemination committee
[17:33] <Tony1> funds dissemination committee (WMF ... new)
[17:33] <SteveMobile> Funds dissemination committee
[17:33] <SteveMobile> Lol
[17:33] <privatemusings> thanks, thanks, thanks! :-)
[17:34] <SteveMobile> Jinx
[17:34] * peter-} recalls when it meant Floppy Disk Controller
[17:34] <privatemusings> so we're asking for just shy of 300,000 from them...
[17:34] <SteveMobile> Lol
[17:34] <Tony1> Peter ... update please. It's 2012!
[17:34] <privatemusings> but we forgot to apply before the deadline, so we're waiting to see if they can accept it ok?
[17:34] <SteveMobile> Even the WMF is going through the FDC
[17:34] <Tony1> yup
[17:34] <Graham87> @Peter: those were the days, my friend
[17:35] <Lankiveil> I wouldn't say "forgot", but yeah, we're waiting to see if it's accepted
[17:35] <SteveMobile> I remember losing class work because I saved it on a floppy
[17:35] <Lankiveil> if it's not, we apply in round two in March
[17:35] <Tony1> I had a lot to do with the development of the FDC, and the insistence on strict deadlines <blush>
[17:35] <privatemusings> and presumably hiring someone is contingent on those funds....
[17:35] == Addihockey10 [~Addihocke@...] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[17:35] <Lankiveil> (and yeah, I also remember losing schoolwork because I got grit inside the casing of a 5 1/4 inch floppy :p)
[17:35] <Lankiveil> @PM: Yes.
[17:36] <SteveMobile> Not exactly
[17:36] <Tony1> My printer broke down the day before my thesis was due
[17:36] <privatemusings> well I had to get up half an hour before going to bed....
[17:36] <Tony1> Sounds like a Signpost day
[17:37] <SteveMobile> Lol, I remember Drivespace 3
[17:37] <Tony1> Drive-in movie theatre? 1960s?
[17:37] <Lankiveil> I remember frying a hard disk with DBLSPACE.  Good times!
[17:37] <privatemusings> so there's the slv thing, the fdc thing, and the agm thing... any more acronyms?
[17:37] <Tony1> plenty
[17:37] <privatemusings> the agm will be early dec?
[17:38] <peter-}> Do we have any idea of the timeframe for FDC decisions and is there a public backup plan?
[17:38] <Tony1> GAC has announced it's not accepting any more annual operational-type applications for chapter funding
[17:38] <privatemusings> gac? (general accounts committee?)
[17:38] <Tony1> timeframe clearly set out ... searching for link now
[17:38] <Lankiveil> GAC: Grant Advisory Committee
[17:38] <SteveMobile> I think we should decide on a date for the AGM today.
[17:39] <privatemusings> any reason not to?
[17:39] <SteveMobile> Also, with the annual plan
[17:39] <SteveMobile> Who wrote it?
[17:39] <privatemusings> sunday 25th Nov looks likely to me :-)
[17:39] <SteveMobile> And is it set in stone?
[17:40] <Lankiveil> @Peter: If we're accepted, then the FDC funding would be approved by mid-December
[17:40] <Tony1> AFAICS, John ... um ... without much help from others, including the membership
[17:40] <SteveMobile> I move a motion that the AGM is on Sunday, 25th November
[17:40] <SteveMobile> Any takers?
[17:41] <Lankiveil> I don't want to set the AGM date until we've got the audited financial statements from the auditor.  And the date of that is up to the auditor.
[17:41] <privatemusings> I'm not quite sure that's how it works, Steve... but it does look like a good day to me :-)
[17:41] <chuqtas> checking my calendar :P
[17:41] * SteveMobile isn't so sure if he can make motions
[17:41] <privatemusings> oh you've made a few in your tiem, steve (hee hee)
[17:41] * peter-} offers SteveMobile some prunes
[17:41] <Lankiveil> so yeah, nothing wrong with 25th November, but I'm not sure we can or should set that in stone.
[17:41] <privatemusings> how about clay?
[17:41] <jayvdb> I've created a proposal based on my email to the members and my proposal here on IRC: 

http://www.wikimedia.org.au//wiki/Proposal:Conflict_of_interest_policy
[17:42] <SteveMobile> Well we need to provide 30 days notice? Or is it 21
[17:42] <SteveMobile> Of an AGM
[17:42] <Lankiveil> we can set it in sand? :p
[17:42] <chuqtas> AFAIK it needs to be publicly advertised 21 days in advance
[17:42] <privatemusings> 28
[17:42] <peter-}> I thought it was 28
[17:42] <jayvdb> samwilson, I believe you seconded the proposal - are you happy to be the public seconder of that proposal ?
[17:42] <privatemusings> oh maybe 21, I dunno....
[17:42] <chuqtas> heh
[17:42] <jayvdb> its 21 days
[17:42] <chuqtas> thats jyust my memory
[17:42] <samwilson> I did?
[17:43] <samwilson> But sure, put me as seconder
[17:43] <jayvdb> ok
[17:43] <Tony1> 25 Nov sounds fine to me
[17:43] <peter-}> Will the reports - particularly the Auditors report - be available in time?  ISTR they are supposed to form part of the official notice.
[17:44] <privatemusings> hopefully :-)
[17:44] <SteveMobile> When did we provide our financials for audit?
[17:44] <privatemusings> the agm has to go ahead regardless.....
[17:44] <privatemusings> (by 1st dec)
[17:44] <jayvdb> done
[17:45] <peter-}> Then I'll also support 25/11
[17:45] <SteveMobile> Yay
[17:45] <Tony1> Craig, can't you give the auditor a deadline?
[17:45] <JJHarrison> I'm fine with 25th, all done by then
[17:46] <Lankiveil> @Tony1: Yes, but we can't really enforce it.  I will write to her and see if she can commit to having everything done and signed off before then.
[17:46] <Tony1> she IS being paid ...
[17:46] <privatemusings> maybe just tell her when the agm is
[17:46] <Lankiveil> Ideally I would prefer we get the statements well before the AGM to allow members time to scrutinise them
[17:47] <Tony1> too late for that
[17:47] <SteveMobile> This was the one thing I wanted today :-)
[17:47] <Lankiveil> @Tony1: Yes, but if she tells us to get stuffed we can hardly take our business elsewhere and start again at this point.  I'll see what I can do.
[17:47] <privatemusings> the committee will need to formally set the date, of course....
[17:47] <Tony1> yes, but she's a professional ... she doesn't want bad friends in the business, does she?
[17:48] <jayvdb> Butch Bustria from the Philippines will be visiting Jakarta on the 24-25th, so I will be a bit busy the day before and on the day, but we can plan 

around that
[17:48] == privatemusings [~chatzilla@...] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427]]
[17:48] <Tony1> who?
[17:50] <Lankiveil> @Tony: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Exec8
[17:50] <Tony1> thx
[17:50] <chuqtas> (He's a trustee of WMPH)
[17:52] <jayvdb> ok. so we have a tentative date for the AGM.  We'll need to query the membership via email to see if there are any objections.
[17:52] <Tony1> FDC timelines for the October and March rounds: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Funds_Dissemination_Committee/Master_timeline
[17:53] == peej [~peej@...] has joined #wikimedia-au
[17:53] == peej has changed nick to Guest60857
[17:53] <jayvdb> are there any parts of the Annual Plan that someone wants to discuss ?  I agree with Tony1 that the staff role is a very high priority
[17:54] <Guest60857> Privatemusings here on a less dead device...
[17:54] <jayvdb> The committee has tried to prepare the organisation for our first staff member, but that hasnt happened.  So our plan is to offer a fixed cost contract 

for someone to do this for us
[17:54] <Guest60857> I think the staff is very important, but its also quite a lot of money allocated
[17:55] <Guest60857> What will the chapter be able to do after this process that it can't currently do by we'll?
[17:55] <Guest60857> (do very well)
[17:55] <Tony1> Our application is here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FDC_portal/Proposals/2012-2013_round1/Wikimedia_Australia/Proposal_form
[17:56] <jayvdb> Employing a junior means also employing a CEO, and the combined cost would be higher
[17:56] <SteveMobile> Yeah.
[17:56] <SteveMobile> Also, what duties will this staffer be undertaking?
[17:56] <jayvdb> Guest60857: project management and communications management are the two tasks that we hope to take away from the committee
[17:57] <SteveMobile> If its just paperwork and stuff, that's fine
[17:57] <peter-}> It sounds like the committee just need a good PA/XA.
[17:57] <SteveMobile> But if its member facing stuff, I think the members should have a say in selection
[17:57] <Tony1> we have no stated initiatives, objectives, milestones, measures ...
[17:57] <Guest60857> 'Member facing' sounds awful!
[17:58] <Guest60857> Tony - could you suggest some?
[17:58] <Tony1> it really is getting rather late to edit that doc
[17:58] <Tony1> I could, but ...
[17:58] <SteveMobile> Guest60857: Compared to non member facing
[17:58] <SteveMobile> Ie, at the WMF, my role is community-facing
[17:59] <SteveMobile> As opposed to someone from tech who isn't
[17:59] <peter-}> I'd disagree and suggest that involving the general membership would create a bikeshed.
[17:59] <jayvdb> SteveMobile: we have proposed that the members are involved in the selection process.  See http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/2013_Annual_Plan#Staff
[17:59] <Guest60857> I'd agree with peter.
[17:59] <Guest60857> Whatever a bike shed is!
[17:59] <Tony1> do we have a job description?
[17:59] <SteveMobile> Ah, good.
[17:59] <Lankiveil> to my mind, the duties would be mainly with paperwork and the like.  The current committee tends to get buried under minutæ and trivial matters, when 

we should be doing programme work and high-level stuff
[17:59] <SteveMobile> That suits me :-)
[18:00] <chuqtas> Guest60857: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law_of_Triviality :0
[18:00] <Guest60857> Hmmmmm......
[18:00] <Guest60857> I'm nervous at hearing that, Craig
[18:01] <Lankiveil> don't be :)
[18:01] <Lankiveil> I'm simply suggesting a better use of our time would involve not doing data entry and collecting receipts and such
[18:01] <peter-}> Lankiveil: Hence my comment about the position being a PA.
[18:02] <Tony1> $90k ... you'd expect something more than clerical stuff for that
[18:02] <Lankiveil> to a degree, but I'd like to see capacity building stuff in there as well
[18:03] <SteveMobile> It does seem high
[18:03] <Tony1> indeed: ability to write well, know a bit about PR, writing ads, promos. Excel spreadsheet stuff. Team-player able to work well under direction of the 

committee
[18:03] <peter-}> I would presume that 90K included office space etc.
[18:03] <chuqtas> I would assume $90k includes overheads including super (if required) and so on.
[18:03] <SteveMobile> Tech guys at WMF don't get paid that much
[18:03] <chuqtas> still a lot for a PA of course
[18:04] <Tony1> yes, which is why we get crap from the techs
[18:04] <Lankiveil> yep.  There is a position description which I'm trying to find.
[18:04] <SteveMobile> We would need a pretty big ROI
[18:05] == samwilson [~samwilson@...] has left #wikimedia-au []
[18:05] <Tony1> ROI?
[18:05] <SteveMobile> And I am not sure 90k for paperwork is justified IMO
[18:05] <SteveMobile> Return on investment
[18:05] <Tony1> this would be a part-time position, surely?
[18:05] <SteveMobile> Value for money, etc
[18:05] <Guest60857> If the wmf were to give funds, do they have to be spent in the allocations applied for?
[18:05] <Guest60857> As in, are we locked in to that staff cost / shape?
[18:06] <Lankiveil> Through the FDC?  No.
[18:06] <SteveMobile> Yep
[18:06] <Tony1> major changes in allocations: you'd have to ask them for permission
[18:06] <peter-}> I guess one of the outcomes from the initial process would be (at least indirectly) the salary.
[18:06] <Lankiveil> I'm sure they'd get upset if you turned around and spent it on a giant bronze statue of John or something.  But strictly speaking, no.
[18:06] <Guest60857> so if we decided to hire someone to do pap work (low risk lower cost) and someone else to do 'capacity building' or anything else, might that be ok?
[18:06] <chuqtas> should be at least a golden statue :P
[18:06] <Guest60857> I'd really rather see the two separated....
[18:07] <Tony1> I can see it at the SLQ entrance
[18:07] <Guest60857> Maybe we'll just buy some paint and persuade him to stand still for a whole?
[18:07] <peter-}> A lot of the ROI is in reducing committee member burnout.
[18:08] <Lankiveil> @peter: exactly.  Even if the money is spent on admin, it frees up other more precious resources (volunteer time) to do cool stuff.
[18:08] <SteveMobile> Right, but still, 90k seems high for someone that does it part time
[18:09] <Lankiveil> $90k outlook doesn't mean that the person gets $90k
[18:09] <Lankiveil> http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/2013_Annual_Plan#Staff
[18:09] <SteveMobile> As long as that's the case :-)
[18:09] <SteveMobile> If we can get it for 60k we should aim for that
[18:09] <Lankiveil> "To achieve the wmau:Strategic Plan, Wikimedia Australia needs to obtain a Communications and Project Manager."
[18:09] <SteveMobile> As long as the quality is the same
[18:09] <Lankiveil> this won't just be a paper pusher, we'd want some experience, weekend work, travel, etc.
[18:10] <Lankiveil> and yeah, if we can do it cheaper, we will
[18:10] <Lankiveil> http://wikimedia.org.au/wiki/Strategic_Plan#Core:_Professionalise_WMAu_operations_and_fundraising <-- also this, which goes into what the chapter 

needs eventually in terms of staffing
[18:10] <SteveMobile> Will it be a Wikimedian though?
[18:10] <SteveMobile> I think it should be.
[18:10] <Lankiveil> @Steve, possibly
[18:10] <peter-}> SteveMobile: I agree it looks a lot but would like to see the position description and check going rates.
[18:10] <Lankiveil> obviously knowing the community and movement would be a massive advantage
[18:10] <Guest60857> Heh... does anyone?
[18:11] <Guest60857> ;)
[18:11] <Tony1> presuming this will be largely an online job, from any base?
[18:11] <SteveMobile> Heh
[18:11] <SteveMobile> Well I've been managing a big project for ~6mths but I'd never apply
[18:11] <SteveMobile> :p
[18:11] <peter-}> Lots of CoI issues if it's an active editor
[18:12] <Tony1> Craig, have you been able to dig up the job specs?
[18:12] <jayvdb> SteveMobile: $60K doesnt a manager obtain
[18:12] <SteveMobile> Hmm
[18:12] <Lankiveil> @Tony: Yes.  I'm uploading as we speak.
[18:12] <Tony1> thx; can't start till we see them
[18:12] <peter-}> Is this a part
[18:12] <SteveMobile> Well, fwiw, Barry newstead moved to Melbourne
[18:12] <peter-}> Is this a part
[18:12] <peter-}> GRRRRRR
[18:12] <SteveMobile> He's a pretty good project manager
[18:13] <Lankiveil> Barry would be good from my perspective, I'm not sure we could afford him though.
[18:13] <Tony1> agree with Craig
[18:13] <Tony1> is he pursuing a career in Australia?
[18:13] <peter-}> Is this a part-time or full-time role?
[18:14] <SteveMobile> Tony1: Moved because of family
[18:14] <Tony1> sure; but my question stands
[18:14] <peter-}> Do we want a published WM-Au phone number that this person would answer?
[18:14] <SteveMobile> You mean a career in Wikimedia? Idk
[18:14] <Tony1> and ... peter's question: how flexible in terms of not full-time?
[18:14] <Lankiveil> @Steve: Have you guys in Melbourne been in contact with Barry since he got here?
[18:15] <Tony1> no, any career
[18:15] <SteveMobile> No, not yet
[18:15] <SteveMobile> Tony1: Yeah
[18:15] <SteveMobile> One sec
[18:15] <Lankiveil> http://www.wikimedia.org.au//wiki/File:PD_Draft.pdf <-- I'll convert this to Wikitext later so that you guys can edit away, but here is a draft.  

Don't mind the "Brisbane" bit for now.
[18:16] <Tony1> 39
[18:16] <SteveMobile> He's working with aus post
[18:16] <SteveMobile> I can always try to get in touch with him
[18:16] <Lankiveil> oh my
[18:16] <Tony1> how unlikely
[18:16] <SteveMobile> I have his email
[18:16] <Lankiveil> I'd like to let him know, on the off chance he wants to take a paycut :p
[18:16] <Tony1> WMF to Australia Post?
[18:17] <SteveMobile> Yes
[18:17] <Tony1> I'd like to get him involved in WMAu more generally
[18:17] <SteveMobile> Ditto
[18:18] <Lankiveil> double ditto
[18:19] <Tony1> So, the job specs need work. And I'd like to know P/T vs F/T and what the in-the-hand salary would be for FTE (i.e. what the on-costs are). Not now, but 

perhaps when this is up on WMAu's site
[18:19] <Lankiveil> aye
[18:19] <Lankiveil> I envision it would be flexible full-time
[18:20] <Lankiveil> ie: 5 days a week, but not necessarily Mon-Fri
[18:20] <Tony1> and not a higher-level half-time assisted by a lower-level part-time?
[18:20] <Lankiveil> and salary is something to be determined by an expert in the field after looking at the industry standards, but unfortunately I don't have that 

experience available
[18:21] <Tony1> less important, IMO
[18:21] <Tony1> I think the $20K for prep looks rather high
[18:21] <peter-}> Is there enough workload for a full-time role?
[18:22] <Lankiveil> that includes the cost of working out how we're going to do it and exactly what the pay is
[18:22] <Lankiveil> @Peter: Yes, I think so.
[18:23] <Tony1> And would it include writing and organising a blog, along the WMUK lines?
[18:23] <Tony1> I think they have impressive PR from that
[18:23] <SteveMobile> Hey are we gonna make a bid for 2014
[18:23] <Lankiveil> I'd like to see them engage with our existing community, either by a blog, an active Twitter presence, or whatever
[18:24] <SteveMobile> We should spend $60,000 on a bid like WMUk :0
[18:24] <peter-}> Tony1: That $20K includes $10K for the actual recruitment.  That is about what a professional head-hunter would expect for a ~$90K position.
[18:24] <SteveMobile> No
[18:24] <Tony1> will it be a prof. headhunter?
[18:24] <Lankiveil> @Steve: $60k?  Absolutely not.
[18:25] <SteveMobile> I was kidding
[18:25] <Lankiveil> (I know you weren't being serious, but just putting that out there)
[18:25] <SteveMobile> Being serious though
[18:25] <Graham87> as you probably know, there was copious drama when WMUK suggested something similar
[18:25] <SteveMobile> Are we going to bid?
[18:25] <chuqtas> I don't think 2014 is reasonable, considering 2013 is in Hong Kong
[18:26] <SteveMobile> Graham87: It was meant to come across as sarcasm
[18:26] <chuqtas> which, from the EU/US point of view, is right next door to us!
[18:26] <peter-}> Tony1: Dunno but I'm just suggesting that the $20K doesn't look outrageous as a commercial rate.
[18:26] <Lankiveil> there's been some bleating from the Europeans that Hong Kong is too far away for them already :p
[18:27] <Tony1> HK is not much further for them than for us
[18:27] <Lankiveil> having it two years outside of their continent?  The poor dears.
[18:27] <SteveMobile> Pfft London is ages away from everywhere
[18:27] <chuqtas> heh
[18:27] <Tony1> HK 11 hours for us? Perhaps 12 from Berlin?
[18:27] <SteveMobile> I'll be going to HK
[18:27] <SteveMobile> London, doubt it
[18:28] <chuqtas> And Alexandria (Egypt) and Haifa (Israel) are hardly inconvenient for Europeans to travel to either!
[18:28] <Lankiveil> it's about 9 hours if you go non-stop, although most flights transit through Singapore or KL
[18:28] <SteveMobile> I have to go to Hong Kong
[18:29] <Tony1> HK is important for the movement strategically.
[18:29] <SteveMobile> I'm getting a tattoo in HK
[18:29] <SteveMobile> Or so I am told
[18:29] <Lankiveil> HK is great, it's a Wikimania I might possibly be able to get to!
[18:29] <jayvdb> SteveMobile: if you are seriously wanting to do it, start a bid.  Even doing a bid is an awful lot of work, and you dont get paid to do it.
[18:29] <Tony1> China is highly problematic, and the WMF and Japan seem to be studiously ignoring each oterh
[18:29] <SteveMobile> Haven't we started a bid?
[18:30] <Tony1> oh let's get our house in order before bidding for Wikimanic
[18:30] <jayvdb> there was a Brisbane bid, and a never-off-the-ground Sydney bid
[18:30] <Lankiveil> anyway, I don't think 2014 is really feasible, it will almost certainly be in Europe
[18:30] <chuqtas> Tony1: we had a small discussion about Wikimedia activities in Japan at the Wikimedia Asia lunch at WM2012.  It seems in Japan, having meetups (and 

other real life events) is not culturally the "done thing".
[18:30] <Lankiveil> (and almost certainly not in the UK)
[18:30] <chuqtas> There were very few Japanese at WM.
[18:30] <Lankiveil> so 2015 would be the next possible year, essentially
[18:30] <jayvdb> the biggest problem we have is the lack the volunteers in any one place who are keen to help
[18:31] <Tony1> The Signpost has made prelim investigations into Japan; we have a few contacts, but no viable stories yet. What struck us was how it's been left off the 

radar for so long
[18:31] <chuqtas> Tony1: I suggest (and others have in the past) that an Australia (or Asia-Pacific) Wikimedia conference would be a good "proof of concept" that the 

chapter is capable of such a thing
[18:31] <peter-}> If the $90K + $5K "on-costs" covers salary, leave, super, office space etc. then I don't think it's especially generous for a full-time position.
[18:31] <SteveMobile> Sydney 2012
[18:31] <Tony1> Not if we can get someone good, no. Unsure about the full-time bit, though
[18:32] <SteveMobile> Most flights go through Sydney
[18:32] <SteveMobile> Er, Sydney 2015
[18:32] <Tony1> Expensive and so far away
[18:33] <SteveMobile> Sydney?
[18:33] <chuqtas> bid discussions often get to the "ok, lets agree on a city first" and never leave that stage :-/
[18:33] <peter-}> SteveMobile: Or Melbourne or Brisbane or Cairns
[18:33] <Tony1> yes; and I'm more concerned about getting WMAu properly working first
[18:33] <Graham87> Sydney is about as far away from Europe as you can get ...
[18:33] <Lankiveil> I'm with Tony here.  Wikimania is a long-term proposition, at least for the chapter.
[18:33] <Graham87> besides NZ
[18:33] <peter-}> Graham87: Easter Island
[18:34] <Graham87> laughing out loud
[18:34] <SteveMobile> Graham87: Antarctica
[18:34] <SteveMobile> Is further away
[18:34] <Lankiveil> there are better things we can do with our resources that will have more impact than having everyone over here for a few days
[18:34] <Graham87> Eucla!
[18:34] <Tony1> Well, NZ is another issue: why aren't we formally inviting NZ members?
[18:34] <Lankiveil> Wikimania Norfolk Island
[18:34] <Graham87> hehe
[18:34] <SteveMobile> Wikimania Antarctica!
[18:34] <Lankiveil> Wikimania Pitcairn Island, now that I think of it
[18:34] <chuqtas> I think NZ is the antipodes of Spain, so pretty close :)
[18:34] <Tony1> seriously
[18:34] <SteveMobile> Antarctica wouldn't work - no wifi
[18:34] <Tony1> Wikimedia ANZ
[18:34] <peter-}> I don't see the volunteer density in any Oz cities to run a big conference.
[18:35] <chuqtas> Tony1:  you mean NZ members to WMAU ?
[18:35] <Lankiveil> because we're WM Australia, not WM New Zealand?
[18:35] <Tony1> YES!
[18:35] <Tony1> (1) bad that NZ isn't covered; (2) we need more numbers
[18:35] <Tony1> I suggest that we include, in a subsequent FDC bid, a project to get things up and running for NZ inclusion
[18:36] <Graham87> we allow NZ/Pacific Island people in at a reduced rate IIRC
[18:36] <Tony1> WIkimedia Oceania
[18:36] <Guest60857> Heh... I rather think we should just try to do a bit more, rather then spread further afield :)
[18:36] <chuqtas> we are generally supportive of Wikimedians in Oceania in general, and no doubt we would assist the NZ members to develop WMNZ, but I guess it'd kind of 

their thing - don't want to step on toes and do it for them
[18:36] <chuqtas> WM chapters are specifically national or sub-national entities
[18:36] <jayvdb> Tony1: we have one NZ member, and we have a special 50% discount on membership for all Pacific Island nations
[18:37] <Tony1> NZ too small by itself for a viable chapter. WE have enough trouble.
[18:37] <SteveMobile> Sonia was talking about WMNZ at RCC
[18:37] <peter-}> A premature or under-resources Wikimania bid would burnout a lot of volunteers and cause long term damage to WMAu
[18:37] <Tony1> Have we tried to get more members from non-Austr. Oceania?
[18:37] <jayvdb> See http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/Meeting:Committee_%282011-12-18%29#Membership_Report
[18:37] <Tony1> aside from the practical advantages, it would be a very good selling point with the foundation
[18:38] <Guest60857> I hope it wouldn't distract us from programmes
[18:38] <Guest60857> Or just generally doing stuff...
[18:38] <Tony1> Any specific fears about "distraction"?
[18:39] <Guest60857> My feeling is that once you do stuff, people follow...
[18:39] <Guest60857> so any effort in the direction of more members is bassackward is way...
[18:39] <Guest60857> (IMHO)
[18:39] <SteveMobile> Oh
[18:39] <SteveMobile> Something worth mentioning
[18:39] <jayvdb> Wikimedia Australia would be interested in assisting with a national conference.  there have been a few failed attempts at doing that.
[18:40] <Tony1> we have how many members? 50 or so? Why not aim for 100, including these neighbouring jurisdictions?
[18:40] <SteveMobile> Im working on trying to get free access to Wikipedia in Asia and Australia
[18:40] <Tony1> and we labour anyway under geographical dispersion ... we're not the Dutch or HK chapter with those huge advantages of centralisation
[18:41] <peter-}> We need to address "What's in it for me?"
[18:41] <Tony1> ??
[18:42] <peter-}> Tony1: As an arbitrary editor or interested, why should I join WMAU (or similar organisation)
[18:42] <Tony1> It bothers me that NZ (and the other Oceanic countries) is so poorly represented in the en.WP community
[18:42] <peter-}> s/interested/interested person/
[18:43] <SteveMobile> Tony1: Hear hear
[18:43] <Tony1> Peter, that's a rather fundamental question to do with the very nature of chapters; unsure what level you intend a response on
[18:44] <peter-}> If we want more members, we need to address it.
[18:44] <Tony1> happy for the committee to at least set a target, over a specific period
[18:45] <chuqtas> depends, do you mean "members" or "financial members"?  there is a technical difference :)
[18:45] <jayvdb> the majority of our core 'sustaining' members are happy that the primary benefit of membership is having a greater role in deciding the future of 

Wikimedia activities in Australia; esp. preventing it from going off course.
[18:45] <SteveMobile> How many members do we have, and how much of a change in number is that from before
[18:45] <jayvdb> others want access to a set of motivated volunteers.
[18:46] <Tony1> 49 now; figures slightly contaminated by the joining of a proportion of people as a bona-fide donation (much welcomed, don't get me wrong)
[18:47] <jayvdb> There were 59 members on 30 June 2012. On July 1 the number drops every year, and we climb back up with late renewals and new members each year
[18:47] <peter-}> Regarding the oceanic en.WP community, having just spent 2 weeks in Fiji - the average person there doesn't have a computer, which tends to be a 

disincentive.
[18:48] <Tony1> Could I raise one more thing before leaving: edit-a-thons and education programs, both involving the running of "training" sessions in how to edit WP, 

are all over the place, and important to a lot of what chapters are doing. I don't have a lot of confidence in the movement's ability to conduct these sessions very 

well. And I find the lack of "packaged" training resources an opportunity missed.
[18:49] <peter-}> That's something WMF should address.
[18:49] <Tony1> It would be very easy to get funding from the WMF to develop pilot resources in English, and a good look for WMAu
[18:50] <SteveMobile> That'd go through grants, no?
[18:50] <jayvdb> Tony1: our SLQ training workshops had a package training resource. See the PDF on the right hand side at 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/SLQ
[18:50] <peter-}> I'm surprised WMF hasn't developed them already
[18:50] <Tony1> If we're funded by the FDC, we can't apply to the GAC
[18:51] <Tony1> well ... where are they?
[18:51] <SteveMobile> We should do something similar for the SLV
[18:51] <jayvdb> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Wikipedia_Training_Manual.pdf&page=1
[18:52] <Tony1> I'm talking about (1) tips on how to run a session, logistically; (2) slides (even vids, but that's involved and expensive); and (3) materials for 

trainees to use in the portions of the session devoted to self-work on targeted skills
[18:53] <jayvdb> I dont think our SLQ slides are uploaded to Wikimedia Commons.  We need to do that
[18:54] <jayvdb> nod. the additional material we developed with SLQ needs to be made available.
[18:54] <Tony1> No. 3 is really really important; requires careful thought and planning. We need a set of photocopies and URLs, a ghost article for the purpose, and 

specific small tasks to induct trainees. It needs to be a bit contrived to get the skills across in a short period of time, which is usually all one has.
[18:54] <chuqtas> whiteghost.ink developed some training resources - for the Qld sessions she did, I presume
[18:55] <chuqtas> Leigh Blackall had some for the sessions in Hobart in Feb too.  I reckon there is plenty of information and sample slides etc. out there, just needs to 

be consolidated
[18:55] <Tony1> IMO, you alternate between explanation and "trainer shows everyone", and then "try it yourselves". And it needs to treat each of the basic skills one at 

a time.
[18:56] <jayvdb> here is what whiteghost.ink created. https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Best_practices_in_training_adults
[18:56] <Tony1> Ghana has a keen project for schools before the GAC right now: I shudder to think how they're going to do it. They give no details of method or process.
[18:57] <jayvdb> more training material at https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Bookshelf
[18:57] <chuqtas> I don't think they are officially a chapter yet?
[18:57] <chuqtas> (Ghana) ?
[18:58] <Tony1> thx; I'll read these later—looks good. But we need packaged source materials and trial articles. That's the rub.
[18:59] <Tony1> not a chapter, no. And all in English (official language)
[19:00] <Tony1> bye everyone
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[19:01] <jayvdb> that is the two hours up.  should we keep going and logging, or conclude there and publish the log?
[19:02] <jayvdb> does anyone have other parts of the Annual Plan they want to ask about?
[19:02] <Lankiveil> I have errands to run, but I'll be here and there over the next hour if people still want to chat
[19:10] <Graham87> ciao everyone
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[19:27] <jayvdb> guess that is a resounding 'no'. ;-)