Meeting:Public (2013-09-01)/Transcript

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[16:00] <Steven_Zhang> My computer informs me it's 4pm
[16:00] <Steven_Zhang> should we get started, Lankiveil?
[16:00] <Lankiveil> yep
[16:01] <Lankiveil> well, John has just messaged me saying he's on his way
[16:01] <Lankiveil> lets wait a minute for him
[16:01] <Steven_Zhang> okay
[16:01] <Steven_Zhang> yeah
[16:01] <Lankiveil> but thanks everyone else for coming :)
[16:02] <Adrian> That's ok
[16:02] <Lankiveil> I think we'll follow the usual format of the ctte giving a summary of where we're at with various programmes and such
[16:02] <Lankiveil> and then open the floor to questions
[16:02] <Steven_Zhang> there we go.
[16:02] <Lankiveil> the digital floor
[16:02] <Steven_Zhang> just put 2hrs of pingu on the TV
[16:03] <Lankiveil> @Steven_Zhang: Sometimes I'm glad I'm not a parent and have no idea what that means ;)
[16:03] <Steven_Zhang> you don't know what Pingu is?
[16:03] <Steven_Zhang> O_o
[16:03] <Lankiveil> just a reminder that these meetings are open, and a log will be posted on the WMAU website
[16:03] <Lankiveil> so if you don't want your attendance noted, then please leave the channel
[16:04] <Lankiveil> its also father's day and I've left a couple of messages to my old man asking him to call me back, so if I drop out suddenly that's why
[16:05] == Adrian [~adrian@....bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[16:05] <Lankiveil> oh, I hope I'm not that boring
[16:05] == Adrian [~adrian@....bigpond.net.au] has joined #wikimedia-au
[16:05] <Steven_Zhang> lol.
[16:05] == jayvdb [~chatzilla@wikimedia/Jayvdb] has joined #wikimedia-au
[16:05] <Lankiveil> hehe
[16:05] <Lankiveil> yay!
[16:05] <Lankiveil> wb Adrian, hi John
[16:05] <Steven_Zhang> Hi John.
[16:05] <jayvdb> hi everyone
[16:05] <Lankiveil> okay, lets start
[16:05] <Adrian> Thanks
[16:06] <Lankiveil> first of all, lets talk about user training
[16:06] <Lankiveil> Kerry Raymond and I had a meeting with our partners at SLQ a couple of weeks ago to talk about a new approach to doing introductory "welcome to Wikimedia" style sessions
[16:07] <Lankiveil> basically, while our existing regional sessions have had good outcomes in terms of turnout, getting local history articles up, and user satisfaction, they haven't been wildly successful at getting users to come back after the day
[16:08] <Lankiveil> and to point out, nobody really knows how to get a good retention rate from these sort of sessions, so we're not the only ones in this boat
[16:08] <Lankiveil> at the moment, what we usually do is an intensive one-day course that aims to get users to create their first article on the day
[16:08] <Lankiveil> what we're proposing to experiment with, is to run three two hour sessions over three weeks in a given location
[16:08] == Amqui [~Amqui@wikimedia/Amqui] has joined #wikimedia-au
[16:09] <Lankiveil> We're hoping we can trial this in Ipswich (in Queensland) before the end of the year
[16:09] <Steven_Zhang> hmm, that could be a good idea.
[16:09] <Lankiveil> the thinking being that the human attention span usually starts to give out at the two hour mark, hence why uni lectures usually top out at two hours
[16:09] <Steven_Zhang> let it sink in a bit rather than having people's brains asplode and give them a chance to practice
[16:09] <Lankiveil> we give people two hours of Wiki goodness, give them a week to let it sink in, and then give them another burst
[16:10] <Lankiveil> beaten ;)
[16:10] <Lankiveil> obviously the time commitment issue is something we need to look at - for some people three sessions across three days might be a bigger ask than one session on one day, in terms of fitting it into their schedule and getting time off work
[16:11] <Lankiveil> also, this obviously won't work for sessions in remote areas where we don't already have a trainer on the ground
[16:11] <Lankiveil> it would not be good value for money to send a trainer to the Pilbara three times in three weeks for a two hour session, for instance
[16:11] <Lankiveil> that's why this will be trialled in metro areas
[16:11] <Tony1> why the focus on creating articles rather than editing existing articles?
[16:11] <Lankiveil> hopefully we can get more bang for our buck
[16:12] <Steven_Zhang> Trialling in metro areas is definitely a better idea.
[16:12] <Steven_Zhang> at least for now
[16:12] <Lankiveil> Tony1: The initial idea was that "create your own article" was a better value proposition than "fix someone else's article".  But we have had no trouble at all filling these sessions, so maybe that won't be an issue.  The first session would involve editing existing articles (probably chosen in advance if possible)
[16:13] <Lankiveil> we're thinking the modules would be along the lines of "Day 1: What is Wikimedia, and the Visual Editor"
[16:13] <Lankiveil> "Day 2: Copyright, images, and media"
[16:13] <jayvdb> Just a by the way in case it hasnt been mentioned before I arrived: the log of this meeting will be published publicly.
[16:13] <Tony1> en.WP has 4.3 million articles, many of them crappy
[16:13] <Lankiveil> "Day 3: Article creation"
[16:13] <Tony1> So don't libel me
[16:13] <Lankiveil> nobody will be libelled :)
[16:14] <Lankiveil> but yeah, you're right that there are many stubs or poor articles that need love
[16:14] <Lankiveil> and if we can direct users to those articles first, then great.  Even if they don't show up for day two, at least a poor article will have gotten a little bit better.
[16:14] <Tony1> I suggest real editing skills be the predominant theme; not article creation, which will just create MORE stubs
[16:14] <Lankiveil> Tony1: Yep.
[16:15] <Tony1> what are the priority skills, then?
[16:15] <Tony1> and what exercise materials will be used?
[16:15] <Lankiveil> It's important to remember this is experimental in nature, we're in the process of seeing what works, and what works better
[16:15] <jayvdb> uploading media to Commons is IMO one of the main skills to be part of workshops targetting the cultural sector
[16:16] <Steven_Zhang> we also need to consider what we can do in six hours.
[16:16] <Tony1> copies of and/or links to good source material are critical, and need to be prepped ahead of the session for each article that will be used as an exercise
[16:16] <Steven_Zhang> There's no way we're going to get people writing FA articles in that time, so we need to use it wisely
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[16:16] <Steven_Zhang> I do agree that editing existing articles is the way to go.
[16:16] <Lankiveil> the Visual Editor also removes the "oh no markup!!!!" problem which is by far the #1 problem new users complain about at these sessions, and the one that has taken up a lot of time.  VE will allow us more time to talk about writing skills and other important things
[16:17] <Tony1> Expecting people to hunt down the locations of reliable sources will encourage not much to be done in the session
[16:17] <Lankiveil> If we choose some articles beforehand that need love (or ask our users to help us), we can make sure the sources are RIGHT THERE in the room
[16:17] <Lankiveil> so it becomes a question less of "how do I research?" and more "how do I use this software application"
[16:18] <Lankiveil> sorry, I meant, ask attendees in advance to tell us what they want to add to.
[16:18] <Lankiveil> the sources could be digital, of course
[16:19] <russavia> hey all, say i liked the suggestion about updating wikimedia.org.au with content from the projects -- just a suggestion, try not to limit it to english content, because theres a lot of good content on other projects as well
[16:19] <jayvdb> in my experience with training in the cultural sector, the "oh no markup!!!" problem only appears when it comes to references, as that is when it becomes complex
[16:19] <Lankiveil> it depends on your users
[16:19] <Tony1> Probably a set of photocopies, and URLs, for each person? Maybe a lightning exercise using the same incomplete article at some stage, using prepped sandboxes (enough for one per person)? Changing modes during a two-hour session is important in keeping them in a learning mood
[16:19] <jayvdb> and the VE is pants wrt references :P
[16:19] <Tony1> Treating one exercise as a timed game might work well.
[16:20] <Lankiveil> if you have people who already are used to doing "computery" tasks then markup is less of a problem.  It is more of a problem for people who just walk in off the street, with lots of domain knowledge but not much computer literacy
[16:20] <Lankiveil> Tony1: I really like the timed game idea
[16:20] <Lankiveil> Do you mean something like "Here is an incomplete article, here is a list of fixes/improvements, first one there wins a packet of Tim Tams" ?
[16:21] <Tony1> with a narrow goal or set of goals, achievable in, say, 10 mins
[16:21] <Tony1> wins a date with Jimbo
[16:21] <russavia> is that the booby prize?
[16:22] <Lankiveil> haha
[16:22] <Lankiveil> that idea hadn't occurred to me, but I do like it
[16:23] <Lankiveil> at 10 minutes there's probably time for more than one too
[16:23] <Lankiveil> gives everyone a chance to win chocolate
[16:23] <Lankiveil> or a date with an internet celebrity
[16:23] <Tony1> you could construct a game on one or two of a number of skills: give them a completed article section (in a sandbox), for example, but with the refs/ref-tags removed. Give them a couple of photocopied source texts. They have to insert X number of ref tags (not many)
[16:24] <Steven_Zhang> framed photo with Craig
[16:24] <Steven_Zhang> wait, no
[16:24] <russavia> how about a portrait?
[16:24] <Steven_Zhang> framed, SIGNED photo with Craig
[16:24] <Lankiveil> nah, we want something that people will want
[16:24] <Tony1> games might be preceded by a powerpoint demo doing same task on a different prepped section
[16:24] <Tony1> I have to go
[16:25] <Lankiveil> the problem with references is that, as John said, the current Visual Editor references tool is a bit unstable at the moment, although hopefully thats fixed
[16:25] <Lankiveil> okay
[16:25] == Tony1 [d92c3165@gateway/web/freenode/ip....] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
[16:25] <Lankiveil> thanks for coming along
[16:25] <Lankiveil> okay
[16:25] <Lankiveil> the other thing I wanted to talk about with training is brokering one-on-one training
[16:25] <Lankiveil> especially for members or friends of the chapter who want to brush up a bit
[16:26] <Lankiveil> in the past there's been this assumption that all WMAU members are super power editors, which of course isn't true
[16:26] <Steven_Zhang> hey, where are our edit training workshops documented on wmau wiki?
[16:26] <Lankiveil> (my modest contributions are tiny in comparison to others, especially)
[16:27] <Lankiveil> http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/Education_and_Training
[16:27] <Lankiveil> I created a placeholder a couple of days ago so that we can add the info there
[16:27] <Lankiveil> everything's all scattered about, it would be good to have everything in one place
[16:27] <Lankiveil> which can then be linked from the front page
[16:28] <Lankiveil> ANYWAY
[16:28] <Lankiveil> I'm thinking what we can do is get a list of experienced Australian editors, that we can match with other individuals who want training, where we don't have a partner established in whatever place
[16:29] <Lankiveil> for instance, we don't really have any established partners in Adelaide to host workshops with, so it would be good to say that if some GLAM or person wants some training, that we have a list of people who have expressed interest/availability in such a thing
[16:29] <russavia> get in touch with Michal Rosa for Adelaide
[16:29] <russavia> but he edits on pl.wp
[16:30] <jayvdb> that sounds roughly like the intention behind http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Tony1/Proposed_membership_table
[16:30] <Lankiveil> yep
[16:30] <Lankiveil> the ctte does get requests from orgs and people all the time though who may not dig around on our website for things
[16:30] <Lankiveil> but if that sort of info was captured in that table, we could just refer people to there
[16:31] <Adrian> I like this idea. I joined wikimedia-au to gain some editing skills n knowledge about wikimedia
[16:31] <Lankiveil> @Adrian: Yes, I think a lot of people do, and we haven't been serving them well so far
[16:32] <Lankiveil> @Russavia: We occasionally get requests from cultural orgs and the like for advice on non-English Wikis... where we can we've been referring them to whatever chapter, but there's probably more likelihood of one-on-one with non-English speakers in Australia
[16:32] <Adrian> This sounds like a step in the right direction
[16:33] <Lankiveil> :)
[16:33] <jayvdb> btw, another proposal which should be seconded is the userspace policy.  In March I updated it per the talk page suggestions. http://www.wikimedia.org.au/w/index.php?title=User%3AJohn_Vandenberg%2Fuserspace_policy&action=historysubmit&diff=9149&oldid=8117
[16:33] <Lankiveil> it would be entirely optional of course, so if you'd prefer not to take your own time for one-on-one you don't have to
[16:35] <Lankiveil> John, do you want to talk about the userspace policy next?
[16:35] <jayvdb> I think we should add facebook, twitter, linkedin to our homepage
[16:35] <Lankiveil> then we can talk about editathons
[16:35] <jayvdb> so people on our website can ask us questions instantly
[16:35] <Lankiveil> yep
[16:36] <Lankiveil> I know some people don't like social networking, but it's a good way to engage with the wider community
[16:36] <Lankiveil> especially when sometimes the official Wikimedia channels are a bit... opaque
[16:37] <Lankiveil> alright, I just want to cover a few events that we're doing soon
[16:38] <Steven_Zhang> i think we should add our blog too
[16:38] <Steven_Zhang> and update it.
[16:38] <Lankiveil> the first one is an event in Sydney in conjunction with our friends at the Australian Paralympic Committee
[16:38] <russavia> jayvdb, why dont you add those links now so we can see what they look like
[16:38] <Lankiveil> to work on improving the coverage of disabled sports on Wikipedia, particularly Australian Paralympic disabled sports
[16:39] <Lankiveil> this'll be happening on 21 September
[16:39] <jayvdb> russavia: we need icons, which is not simple as they are not free
[16:39] <Lankiveil> we also have some free tickets to give away to the wheelchair rugby from the 18th to 20th of September
[16:39] <Lankiveil> again, in Sydney
[16:39] <russavia> you want free icons?
[16:40] <jayvdb> I wish I could attend that ;-(
[16:40] <Lankiveil> for more info, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/State_Library_of_New_South_Wales/Paralympics_Workshop
[16:40] <Lankiveil> yeah, isn't "Murderball" the most badass name for any sport?
[16:40] <russavia> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facebook_icon.svg
[16:40] <russavia> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Twitter_icon.png
[16:41] <Lankiveil> uh oh, here comes the copyright discussion :p
[16:41] <russavia> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Linkedin_icon.svg
[16:41] <russavia> PD-textlogo or PD-simple
[16:41] <Steven_Zhang> dun dun dun
[16:41] <Lankiveil> or just https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Social_network_icons
[16:41] <russavia> so jayvdb, chop chop -- i wanna see those links on the website before we wrap up here
[16:42] <Lankiveil> the other workshop we're doing is in November, also in Sydney, to work on the topic of WWI
[16:42] <russavia> and what about a Wikimedia Australia /s/reddit?
[16:42] <Lankiveil> info here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_edit-a-thons/Australia#November_2013
[16:42] <Steven_Zhang> hmm
[16:43] <Lankiveil> I must admit, I'm not really familiar with Reddit but I'm happy for us to engage wherever
[16:43] <Steven_Zhang> seems reasonable
[16:43] <Lankiveil> so long as we don't spread ourselves too thin
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[16:44] <Lankiveil> do we have a page on Pinterest? :p
[16:44] <Lankiveil> okay, final thing: Annual Plan
[16:44] <Lankiveil> which should hopefully be ready soon (tm)
[16:44] <Lankiveil> we had a meeting last weekend to talk about what programmes are in it
[16:45] <Lankiveil> and we're more or less all in agreement on a proposal that will be put to members for further comment
[16:45] <Lankiveil> we did say somewhere we'd ask for $200,000 funding from the Foundation, but I expect we'll need far less than that
[16:45] <Lankiveil> the priority needs to be on programmes that don't cost much, but still deliver impact
[16:45] <Lankiveil> (ie: training workshops in big cities)
[16:46] <Lankiveil> we'd hoped to have it up by now, but the committee has been rather distracted and busy this past week
[16:46] <Lankiveil> a big big thanks to Steven Zhang for really being the engine pushing that forward
[16:46] * Lankiveil applauds
[16:46] == Adrian [~adrian@....bigpond.net.au] has joined #wikimedia-au
[16:46] == russavia [~russavia@wikimedia/Russavia] has quit [Quit: Later]
[16:46] <Lankiveil> okay, unless the rest of the committee has something to add
[16:46] <Lankiveil> I'll ask for questions
[16:47] <Lankiveil> I know you all have some :)
[16:47] * Steven_Zhang scrolls up
[16:48] <Steven_Zhang> ah, yes, the annual plan
[16:48] <Steven_Zhang> im working on that tonight
[16:48] <Lankiveil> great
[16:48] <Steven_Zhang> after the dishes are done -_-
[16:48] <Lankiveil> haha
[16:48] <Lankiveil> I'm having dinner with my family and then frantically working to finish my uni assignment
[16:48] <Lankiveil> so don't expect much out of me after about 5pm tonight
[16:49] <Steven_Zhang> so we have 12 mins
[16:49] <Lankiveil> 11, by my clock :p
[16:51] <Lankiveil> alright
[16:51] <Lankiveil> well, thanks everyone for being so excellent
[16:51] <Lankiveil> it's been a rather difficult couple of weeks
[16:51] <Lankiveil> but we're making progress on things, which is the important part
[16:52] <Steven_Zhang> no one has any questions?
[16:52] <Lankiveil> remember, if you have questions but don't feel comfortable asking them in this setting, that all members of the committee will be happy to respond via private emai
[16:52] <Lankiveil> *email
[16:53] <Lankiveil> also, I see http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/Template:WMAU_social_site_links ;)
[16:54] <jayvdb> now added to front page
[16:54] <jayvdb> need to add IRC and email
[16:54] <jayvdb> and linkedin
[16:54] <jayvdb> and improve layout of front page
[16:54] <Lankiveil> very snazzy
[16:55] <Lankiveil> I think the idea of putting good *content* up there will make it more visually appealing
[16:55] <Lankiveil> I quite like it, but then I enjoy brutalist architecture so don't pay much attention to me on that front
[16:55] <jayvdb> and yes I would like for us to discuss the proposed userspace policy to see if there are any objections. if not, hopefully someone can second it
[16:56] <Steven_Zhang> jayvdb, link me again?
[16:56] <jayvdb> http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:John_Vandenberg/userspace_policy
[16:57] <jayvdb> see also talk page, for discussion about a prior revision of the proposal
[16:57] <Steven_Zhang> seems a reasonable proposal.
[16:58] <Steven_Zhang> seconded.
[16:58] <Steven_Zhang> er
[16:58] <Steven_Zhang> well, i put my name in the box
[16:58] <Lankiveil> hehe
[16:58] <Lankiveil> great
[16:58] <Lankiveil> I don't see anything there I find objectionable
[16:58] <Steven_Zhang> seems the template doesn't like my name though
[16:59] <Steven_Zhang> hmm, fwiw
[16:59] <Steven_Zhang> the topic says that the public meeting is at 8pm AEST
[16:59] <Steven_Zhang> was that decided?
[16:59] <jayvdb> it needs to be moved before the seconder is mentioned. http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/Proposal:Userspace_policy
[16:59] <Steven_Zhang> oh OK
[16:59] <Lankiveil> yep
[17:00] <Lankiveil> so long as you do both I don't think it matters what order they go in
[17:00] <Steven_Zhang> heh, you must have clicked the move button a second before I did
[17:00] <Lankiveil> ...and that's 5pm
[17:00] <jayvdb> nod
[17:00] <Lankiveil> thanks everyone for coming along
[17:00] <Lankiveil> and remember that the committee and I are always willing to discuss issues with you, even outside of this format
[17:01] <Steven_Zhang> Indedd.
[17:01] <Steven_Zhang> indeed, rather.
[17:01] <Lankiveil> and on that note I'm going AFK to have a shower :p
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