Proposal_talk: Bendigo health information workshops 2013

== A few basic questions ==

Leigh, thanks for putting this idea forward.  A couple of quick questions that come to mind: 

#I assume that you would be the "trainer" mentioned?
#Can you summarise any relationship you might have with La Trobe University's Faculty of Health Sciences, to make sure there's no improper COI here?

I must confess that $1100 seems a bit steep for a "small Wikipedia editing workshop", but I'm open to being convinced otherwise!  [[User:Lankiveil|Lankiveil]] 21:19, 6 December 2012 (EST).
:Just for comparison, and for other members' benefit - the two workshops in Hobart earlier this year totalled $2300, of which WMAU contributed $1700. -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] 22:50, 9 December 2012 (EST)
::Thanks for that - my impression is that the budget isn't unreasonable, but it would be good to know how it was developed (which is relevant to addressing the WMF's concerns about the accountability of WPAU's expenditure). [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] 18:59, 10 December 2012 (EST)
:It's not really a fair comparison, but since we're tabulating: the SLNSW training days cost about 2x3 trainer's lunches, which were paid by the SLNSW, and they provided participant's time, photocopying, rooms, computers, and connectivity. --[[User:99of9|99of9]] 21:48, 14 December 2012 (EST)

:::Hi everyone, sincere apologies for my late response! I was half expecting questions to get relayed by email. What was I thinking!
:::Firstly, I work for the Faculty of Health Sciences, at La Trobe University - I would personally prefer not to give the workshop. I'm their educational designer, and in that role I'm trying to encourage the use of the Wikimedia Projects for education, research and community engagement. Getting a workshop happening is partly about linking up WikimediaAu's mission, with parts of the University's mission, and raising awareness in both circles of the opportunities in open educational practices. It is also partly an effort to establish real-people relationships around this idea. Hopefully, someone locally, and with experience, can take on the workshop. I've done a lot of workshops in my time, and could support that person. 
:::Hopefully the budget reflects some realism in paying for the travel and expenses for that person to come to Bendigo, and/or Victoria if need be. We're aiming for 30 people, and budgeting a lunch with morning and afternoon tea at $10 per head. Printing was probably going to posters and PediaPress books.. Not sure yet. What isn't spent would be returned of course. [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 13:08, 17 December 2012 (EST)
::::Thanks for clarifying these points Leigh.  On further reflection, and given what we've done at similar events, the budget seems reasonable to me now.  [[User:Lankiveil|Lankiveil]] 00:18, 21 December 2012 (EST).

== A couple of comments==

* Overnight in Bendigo is it necessary and the course times 0900 - 16:00 its only 160-170km between campasses Melb-Bendigo, which is less than two hours on the Calder Highway
* IMHO I think including a commons uploading session is too much information in one day especially as the works to be uploaded are more likely made by third parties which can get into some complex licensing, permission issues and if they include people with medical issues personality rights and privacy permissions. I think you be better served focusing solely on editing, sourcing formatting WP articles etc. [[User:Gnangarra|Gnan]][[User_talk:Gnangarra|garra]] 17:59, 7 December 2012 (EST)
:Thanks for these suggestions Gnangarra, and sorry for my delay in responding. Depending on who delivers the workshop would determine whether accommodation is necessary. Our main aim is to find an experienced and engaging trainer, who can manage up to 30 people over a full day. I'm used to that, but I'd prefer to bring someone else in. In my own experience, it is possible to get an image on the Commons, but it can vary depending on the dynamics of the group. I usually focus on starting with people's user pages. Once we've structured the page with sections, we add links to help resources like the Cheat Sheet. Then, and only if there's time, I take photos of people or objects and load them to Flickr, where everyone goes to check the license and copy the image to Commons, and then place them on the pages. I usually do this not as one big group, but with the people who advance more quickly - while the others are on other tasks, and then they teach the others. It worked will in Tasmania, but I fully hear your point, and with 30.. will probably not be possible. [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 13:17, 17 December 2012 (EST)

== Are you going to be there anyway? ==

If the optional extra is a week later, does that imply you are going to be in Bendigo for the whole week?  Does that mean you are there on other business anyway?  If so, I'd prefer that WMAU not fund travel.  PS I'd rather not make you answer such questions in public, this is the kind of thing that could go to a private mailing list.  --[[User:99of9|99of9]] 14:25, 9 December 2012 (EST)
:genric answrs are ok but I agree individual circumstances ahouldnt be discussed/revealled here [[User:Gnangarra|Gnan]][[User_talk:Gnangarra|garra]] 15:06, 9 December 2012 (EST)
::No worries for me Gnangarra. I imagine that if we can bring in an external trainer on the first day, I could step in and cover the 2nd. It all depends if we can find a trainer. If not, then it'll be me, and the travel and accommodation could be foregone and directed to something else, like PediaPress help manuals for each person, if that wasn't too much? [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 13:19, 17 December 2012 (EST)

== Some comments ==

This proposal looks to have a lot of merit, but I have three comments on it:
#It would be helpful if a breakdown of how the $700 trainer travel and $300 catering figures were developed was posted (I presume that the budget figures have been  deliberately set at estimates of the highest feasible cost, and the actual expenditure to be reimbursed by WMAU is likely to be somewhat lower). It might be helpful to reference the ATO's [http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?Docid=TXD/TD201217/NAT/ATO/00001&PiT=99991231235958 travel rates], which are widely used as a benchmark for travel and accommodation expenses, or another set of comparable figures.
#Is January the best time to run this workshop? Given that this is when many people are on leave you might get a better turnout in February or March.
#The budgets for the previous workshops in Tasmania included a line item for the facilitator (which was paid by the sponsoring organisations in each case). Should that be added to this proposal, or will there be no facilitation expenses for this workshop? (eg, if you're running this, are you volunteering your time? - which I guess impacts on comment 2 above!). [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] 17:26, 9 December 2012 (EST)
:Thanks for these suggestions Nick-D. 
:#I adjusted the budget using the ATOs travel rates. I couldn't see flights in there - nor do I know where we might fly a trainer in from, if we even do. Naturally, any unspent portion of this proposed budget would be returned. If for example, we find a suitable trainer in Melbourne - which is most likely, then we would ask to boost up the printing budget and order in a small PediaPress training manual (30 copies at $10 each) for example, and to offer a small amount of pay to the trainer (if it is not me or anyone else in La Trobe).
:#Is January the best time? For the primary target group, yes it is. Bendigo Community Health Services nominated late January, and that is probably the better time for La Trobe Health Faculty. In saying that, one of our primary organisers is on leave and not back until Jan 3. If we aren't able to secure a venue through her before then, then we would push it back into February.
:#Facilitator/trainer cost.. at this stage we're going into this with the hope of finding a local trainer, and therefore reducing the travel and accommodation costs so as we can offer them a small amount for their time (what would be an approporiate amount in the eyes of WMAu if that was the case?) If we can't find someone, then I will run the workshop as an in-kind sponsorship from La Trobe, and use some of the travel and accom budget in the printing, returning the rest to WMAu. 
:[[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 16:36, 17 December 2012 (EST)
::Thanks for those responses Leigh. Regards, [[User:Nick-D|Nick-D]] 15:28, 21 December 2012 (EST)

==Need to pin down the trainer==

We need to pin down who is the trainer given that the main cost here is linked to the travel and hence the location of the trainer. Holding the event on a week day is likely to limit the number of folk available to act as a trainer. I also concur with the earlier comment about not trying to cover too much in one day. [[User:Kerry Raymond|Kerry Raymond]] 17:26, 17 December 2012 (EST)

:Can you assist us in finding a trainer Kerry? I only know a couple of people inside Wikimedia Austraila with some experience and expertise. I am prepared to step in if we can't find one. It would be a shame to suspend approval of our application pending finding a trainer. Is my suggestion to divert funds from the trainer if we can't find one, into the suport resources like a PediaPress book, not acceptable? If we delay a decision too long, I won't be able to order PediaPress manuals in on time. If we don't get a trainer, and if I can't order PediaPress manuals in time, then this proposal becomes for catering only. [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 15:10, 20 December 2012 (EST)

::I'm happy to be a support person, as I was with John Vandenberg for the SLQ trainings in N Qld. I can make the time for the sessions, but not for the prep I'd require to lead them. --[[User:Chris Watkins|Chris Watkins]] 18:12, 20 December 2012 (EST)

:::Many thanks Chris. It will be great to have you there, and I'm hoping this will turn into a regular thing. The people out at Bendigo are quite interested in developing skills for the wikis. I'll be in touch as soon as it firms up [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 21:37, 20 December 2012 (EST)

::::We've got quite a few people (such as Chris) who have participated in our regional development workshops, I'm quite sure that finding a trainer won't be an issue.  I'd even potentially be interested in bringing a local (meaning Victorian) along in addition to an experienced trainer to learn the ropes with a view to having someone in the area available for future workshops.  [[User:Lankiveil|Lankiveil]] 00:16, 21 December 2012 (EST).

:::::Excellent suggestion Lankiveil! No better way to learn how to teach then through observation and assistance of others I reckon. If you know people in Victoria, please let them know. We're looking like moving the date to the second week of Feb now, to give some time for promotions, and I'll try and get an attendance list up here on the wiki so we know how many people we may be helping. [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 19:07, 23 December 2012 (EST)

::::::I've notified Peterdownunder at [[w:simple:User talk:Peterdownunder]]. If this proposal is approved (at the Jan 5? board meeting), another email calling for trainers should be sent to the public mailing list, and active people in [[w:Category:Wikipedians in Victoria]] should be notified on their talk page.  Especially, [https://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/CategoryIntersect.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&basecat=Wikipedians+in+Victoria&basedeep=3&mode=cs&tagcat=Wikipedians+interested+in+medicine&tagdeep=5&go=Scan&format=html&userlang=en these 11 people]] in Victoria have an interest in medicine (and most are medical students, nurses, doctors, etc.) --[[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] 13:24, 24 December 2012 (EST)

:::::::I can assist on the day (or both days) and am quite interested in getting involved in training.--[[User:Peterdownunder|Peterdownunder]] 18:33, 7 January 2013 (EST)

::::::::Thanks Peter and John. Good suggestion John, and thanks for making the task simple with that link. The date is firming up to being 21 Feb. I hope that is a good time for you Peter?[[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 15:57, 9 January 2013 (EST)

== Looks good ==

I don't have anything to add beyond what has been said - but it looks good, and I'm glad to discover the resources (e.g. Ten Simple Rules) you've linked here.

== Can we get a second? ==
Folks, if my responses are satisfactory, it would be good to be able to confirm WMAu's support or not as soon as possible, so we can confirm our actions through January. Is there anyone prepared to second this proposal? Please see instructions on the proposal's top [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 15:15, 20 December 2012 (EST)
:I've seconded it to help keep things ticking over. It is a very good proposal, so I'm very happy to do so. - [[User:Bilby|Bilby]] 16:22, 20 December 2012 (EST)
::We also need a 'firster' as Leigh isnt a financial member at the moment. [[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] 16:23, 20 December 2012 (EST)
:::I've moved (firsted?) the proposal. I like the proposal, but I'll leave the funding details to the committee. --[[User:Chris Watkins|Chris Watkins]] 17:57, 20 December 2012 (EST)
:::The template says I've initiated it - just for clarity, I'm intending to move the proposal, but haven't played any part in developing it. --[[User:Chris Watkins|Chris Watkins]] 18:13, 20 December 2012 (EST)
::::I've [http://www.wikimedia.org.au/w/index.php?title=Template:Proposal&diff=8647&oldid=8611 fixed] the template.  Thanks for picking that up. [[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] 18:27, 20 December 2012 (EST)
:::::Thanks everyone. [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 21:37, 20 December 2012 (EST)

==Date change==
We're changing the date to 13 Feb, at this stage. 

I'm not able to edit the proposal, anyone know why?

What comes next? Has the proposal been accepted?

[[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 13:07, 2 January 2013 (EST)
:As you are not a member, you're editing on the wiki is restricted. See [[Proposal:Non-member participation]].
:Your proposal will be voted on by the committee on Saturday at our board meeting. [[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] 14:49, 3 January 2013 (EST)

:: I see, thanks for updating it for me John. Once we hold this workshop, and get a few more staff here interested in using the Wikis in their work, I will suggest that the faculty buy a rolling membership with WMAu.. we might revisit the idea of organisational membership on Sunday?
:: Because editing on WMAu is not possible for non members, I will move the workshop website to Outreach, as we did for the Tasmania workshops, and start out from there - if Chris is comfy with that method. [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 11:25, 4 January 2013 (EST)

Another date change, this one looks set. 21 Feb. Can someone who is able to edit the proposal page, please update it with that date? [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 15:55, 9 January 2013 (EST)

==Workshop now on Outreach==
http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_training_day,_Bendigo_Victoria [[User:Leighblackall|Leighblackall]] 16:23, 9 January 2013 (EST)

== Funding approved ==

The resolution regarding this workshop has now been published at [[Resolution:February_2013_Bendigo_health_information_workshop]].

It asks that a call for trainers is made (e.g. an email on the  public mailing list).  This can be done by anyone.

It also ''asks'' that Leigh contacts 10 Wikipedians directly (i.e. user talk, and emailuser where possible).
I provided a list of 11 possible people above ([[Proposal talk:Bendigo health information workshops 2013#Need to pin down the trainer]]), but any set of 10 people would suffice.  As the resolution is only 'ask', anyone else can do this task for Leigh.

However Leigh is responsible for providing the committee with a list of possible trainers and their estimated expenses.

The first step is to determine the deadline of when possible trainers should respond by, and then write the call for interest.  A draft of the call could be developed on the wiki at e.g. [[Proposal:Bendigo health information workshops 2013/Call for trainers]]. [[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] 10:44, 21 January 2013 (EST)

::'''Contacts:''' I have contacted the 11 people John has identified above, also Wikipedians in Bendigo, and a general invitation on Wikipedians in Australia. I will send out further today to active Victorian editors.--[[User:Peterdownunder|Peterdownunder]] 10:50, 1 February 2013 (EST)

:::Roger that.  I recommend that the deadline for trainers is fairly soon.  Wednesday?  Then Leigh can finalise the list of available trainers and send it through to the committee. [[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] 17:31, 3 February 2013 (EST)